vegan, tallow, does it really matter?

OSP said:
This.

Most "tallow" soaps only have a tiny bit of tallow which to me doesn't make them a "tallow" soap.

My main oil in my OSP soap is tallow.

I think as a community we need to start being a lot more aware of what is actually in our products.
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The really great thing about what's in our soaps, James, is that because you ( and others I trust ) do, I don't have to. I just use, enjoy and don't worry !

JohnnyO. o/
 
JohnnyO said:
The really great thing about what's in our soaps, James, is that because you ( and others I trust ) do, I don't have to. I just use, enjoy and don't worry !

JohnnyO. o/
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That's true Johnny,

But I can only speak for myself. I was at Hampton Court flower show last weekend and there was someone selling "natural" cosmetics. When I pointed out that one of his ingredients isn't natural he chose to ignore me!

It's bloody frustrating for those that do it properly.

The consumer shouldn't always trust what they are told!
 
OSP said:
This.

Most "tallow" soaps only have a tiny bit of tallow which to me doesn't make them a "tallow" soap.

My main oil in my OSP soap is tallow.

I think as a community we need to start being a lot more aware of what is actually in our products.
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James...I appreciate you are a passionate vendor and soap maker with many forum members delighted with your product...indeed I have noticed how animated your posts have been in previous threads regarding any perceived critisism of artisan soap makers. However to assert 'most tallow soaps only have a tiny bit of tallow' is suprising. Indeed I would be even more suprised if, say Tabac, Harris or Haslinger made it known the exact quantity of tallow in their product. I have no doubt your product is excellent but why so quick to denigrate other soap makers methods whith such a sweeping generality?
 
Please let me explain. We all know I'm very passionate. But sometimes people
mistake that for things like aggressiveness etc. Please rest assured that's not my intention.

I'm not by any means denigrating anyone else. Ok so I am the retailer that mentioned his products were natural when they weren't. I don't like that at all. And nor should the consumer.

If someone wants to make soap with less tallow in it than other oils, that's fine. I'm not saying otherwise.

The point I was making is that the consumer should pay more attention to what goes on their skin.

I was actually also making the same point on a Facebook forum but using the example that thayers does not actually contain as much witch hazel as the name leads the consumer to believe. Again, I'm not picking on anyone's products. But this was the topic of debate, just as this topic is about tallow in soap.

All my comments are meant in good faith, I assure you.

One thing that is worth noting is that while I don't know anyone else's exact recipes, by EU law they have to state their ingredients l by percentage, so if something is made mainly of water, the term "aqua" will have to appear first in the ingredients list. You can therefore get a very very rough idea of what % of a product is one ingredient.
 
OSP said:
Please let me explain. We all know I'm very passionate. But sometimes people
mistake that for things like aggressiveness etc. Please rest assured that's not my intention.

I'm not by any means denigrating anyone else. Ok so I am the retailer that mentioned his products were natural when they weren't. I don't like that at all. And nor should the consumer.

If someone wants to make soap with less tallow in it than other oils, that's fine. I'm not saying otherwise.

The point I was making is that the consumer should pay more attention to what goes on their skin.

I was actually also making the same point on a Facebook forum but using the example that thayers does not actually contain as much witch hazel as the name leads the consumer to believe. Again, I'm not picking on anyone's products. But this was the topic of debate, just as this topic is about tallow in soap.

All my comments are meant in good faith, I assure you.

One thing that is worth noting is that while I don't know anyone else's exact recipes, by EU law they have to state their ingredients l by percentage, so if something is made mainly of water, the term "aqua" will have to appear first in the ingredients list. You can therefore get a very very rough idea of what % of a product is one ingredient.
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James I agree that it is always good if the consumer is given the information to make an informed choice. You mention the valid point that ingredients are listed in order of quantity and give the example of water (aqua). Whilst it is great that UK artisan soap makers continue to thrive this does not mean that they are altruistic, have higher standards of ethics or indeed profit is not a significant motivator. I would suggest that artisan shaving soap makers could do more in providing reliable information on curing time and mositure content both of which in my experience can be variable. It is also clear that whilst your own views are valuable this does not negate your obvious conflict of interest as a vendor when you choose to post on threads regarding shaving soap.
 
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Missoni said:
James I agree that it is always good if the consumer is given the information to make an informed choice. You mention the valid point that ingredients are listed in order of quantity and give the example of water (aqua). Whilst it is great that UK artisan soap makers continue to thrive this does not mean that they are altruistic, have higher standards of ethics or indeed profit is not a significant motivator. I would suggest that artisan shaving soap makers could do more in providing reliable information on curing time and mositure content both of which in my experience can be variable. It is also clear that whilst your own views are valuable this does not negate your obvious conflict of interest as a vendor when you choose to post on threads regarding shaving soap.
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Curing time? Moisture content? The average layman is not an organic chemist and I think I can speak for 99.99% of soap users in that this info is absolutely meaningless as regards their decision to buy or not. Do you buy ham based on curing time? I sure don't.

I sense perhaps something of a nationalistic spat. :confused:
 
Missoni said:
James I agree that it is always good if the consumer is given the information to make an informed choice. You mention the valid point that ingredients are listed in order of quantity and give the example of water (aqua). Whilst it is great that UK artisan soap makers continue to thrive this does not mean that they are altruistic, have higher standards of ethics or indeed profit is not a significant motivator. I would suggest that artisan shaving soap makers could do more in providing reliable information on curing time and mositure content both of which in my experience can be variable. It is also clear that whilst your own views are valuable this does not negate your obvious conflict of interest as a vendor when you choose to post on threads regarding shaving soap.
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All good points

I am sure there are some that will take my views with a pinch of salt because of this. But there is not much I can do to remedy this I am afraid.
 
James @OSP has a very valid point in terms of noting (and confronting about) unnatural ingredients in a product which claims to be 'all natural'. It's my understanding that for ECHA cosmetics portal (registering cosmetic products) you need to substantiate any and all claims in your product information file (PIF) which is submitted and scrutinised by authorities prior to placing a product on the market. Something like this would fall under the same blanket as a suncream without any UV-reflecting or absorbing ingredients. Or, an insect repellent which doesn't/cannot repel insects. It's lying in a somewhat convoluted format as the layperson might not be akin to which ingredients are natural and which are not. It's safe to say most chemical names and INCI names (which should be used to list ingredients for cosmetic products, something I see failing relatively often) look like gobbledegook to most people.

I think it's fair to say that although 99% of people might not be in the know about the above, but the more people can understand what is going on the better a product we can have access to, or the more we can trust the sellers of products, as a direct result of calling out those whom fail in these respects.

@Nisse ; it's safe to say most people are suckers for statements pertaining to 'all natural', 'paraben free' etc. whereas the ingredients specifically used may be created in a lab but found in nature, or where parabens are exchanged for tocopheryl acetate (vitamin E for all intents and purposes). I don't see methylparaben (for example) to be a huge issue. It's fairly well documented as a preservative and, although in larger doses causes some skin desensitisation, but is limited to a total of 0.4% w/w (weight percentage) of the total cosmetic formulation. Most manufacturers will be below this threshold.

I tend to scrutinise products quite heavily but I have 5 years education in Chemistry, obtaining my Masters (hons) degree and a fair amount of contact with cosmetic regulations starting my job straight from uni. My other half is keen to find out what individual ingredients do and what to look out for in certain products. A good example of this is salicylic acid in 'chapstick'. It's pretty good at peeling skin, so has the potential (dependent on concentration) to cause lips to chap, therefore requiring more chapstick, so further chapping lips...and the vicious circle continues... SWMBO has even said since scrutinising those types of products herself, her lips peel less and generally feel better.

Tl, dr; The more you know, the better you can approach things and the better a product [we] might have on the shelves down the line. I'm all for exposing those whom try to play the system.
 
To approach the actual thread title - I don't feel like it matters much. I've had great shaves with both types of products. I've tended towards tallow soaps but that's more by chance than anything else.
 
Benz3ne said:
James @OSP has a very valid point in terms of noting (and confronting about) unnatural ingredients in a product which claims to be 'all natural'. It's my understanding that for ECHA cosmetics portal (registering cosmetic products) you need to substantiate any and all claims in your product information file (PIF) which is submitted and scrutinised by authorities prior to placing a product on the market. Something like this would fall under the same blanket as a suncream without any UV-reflecting or absorbing ingredients. Or, an insect repellent which doesn't/cannot repel insects. It's lying in a somewhat convoluted format as the layperson might not be akin to which ingredients are natural and which are not. It's safe to say most chemical names and INCI names (which should be used to list ingredients for cosmetic products, something I see failing relatively often) look like gobbledegook to most people.

I think it's fair to say that although 99% of people might not be in the know about the above, but the more people can understand what is going on the better a product we can have access to, or the more we can trust the sellers of products, as a direct result of calling out those whom fail in these respects.

@Nisse ; it's safe to say most people are suckers for statements pertaining to 'all natural', 'paraben free' etc. whereas the ingredients specifically used may be created in a lab but found in nature, or where parabens are exchanged for tocopheryl acetate (vitamin E for all intents and purposes). I don't see methylparaben (for example) to be a huge issue. It's fairly well documented as a preservative and, although in larger doses causes some skin desensitisation, but is limited to a total of 0.4% w/w (weight percentage) of the total cosmetic formulation. Most manufacturers will be below this threshold.

I tend to scrutinise products quite heavily but I have 5 years education in Chemistry, obtaining my Masters (hons) degree and a fair amount of contact with cosmetic regulations starting my job straight from uni. My other half is keen to find out what individual ingredients do and what to look out for in certain products. A good example of this is salicylic acid in 'chapstick'. It's pretty good at peeling skin, so has the potential (dependent on concentration) to cause lips to chap, therefore requiring more chapstick, so further chapping lips...and the vicious circle continues... SWMBO has even said since scrutinising those types of products herself, her lips peel less and generally feel better.

Tl, dr; The more you know, the better you can approach things and the better a product [we] might have on the shelves down the line. I'm all for exposing those whom try to play the system.
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This is exactly one of the points I was makjng
 
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