Bluffers Guide to British Triple Milled

[pjgh]

T&H have revealed their 2024 formulation by email (thanks guys) which is currently found in Highgrove & Mayfair ...

Highgrove
Sodium Palmate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Stearate, Aqua (Water), Sodium Palm Kernelate, Potassium Laurate, Sodium Laurate, Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), Palm Kernel Acid, Titanium Dioxide, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Chloride, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Sodium Gluconate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Tetrasodium Iminodisuccinate, Limonene, Linalool

Mayfair
Sodium Palmate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Stearate, Aqua (Water), Sodium Palm Kernelate, Potassium Laurate, Sodium Laurate, Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), Palm Kernel Acid, Titanium Dioxide, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Chloride, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Sodium Gluconate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Tetrasodium Iminodisuccinate, Limonene, Linalool, Hydroxycitronellal

... they also tell me that the shea butter enriched Apsley formulation introduced in 2018 is due for release of the reformulation in maybe 4-6 weeks. Pentasodium Pentetate will be replaced with Tetrasodium Iminodisuccinate and I'll make a guess it's like the above, but the shea butter somewhere after the parfum. I'll take a wild guess (given previous connections) that Floris' shea butter base will migrate to this formula as well and I've reached out to them asking what their intentions are.

I actually don't have much hope that either Trumpers or C&S will reformulate at this point, given that neither of their current offerings contain Pentasodium Pentetate, which seems to be the trigger. That said, C&S have a sale on now and the (dud) large tablet of No.88 that I bought only a matter of days ago is no longer present on the website ... not even marked as sold out. Maybe they are about to launch a new range. Maybe they're just getting out of the shaving soap market. Dunno, but we'll see.

As expected, the mainline T&H is strongly related to the new MWF & SFS formulations, as before. Interesting that they've opted to remain palmate-first where TOBS have gone with the (more European?) stearate-first.

Since "New Formulations A/B/C" are closely related and "New Formulations E/F/G" are closely related, I have drawn a box around them.

Has anyone used any of these new formulations, yet? Guys - check your recent purchases of MWF or TOBS Sandalwood! Perhaps one of us has tried Highgrove or Mayfair?

 

[pjgh]

It's also interesting to note that T&H have released two new hard soaps in the last year or so:

T&H Mayfair
T&H Highgrove

T&H replied to my query today informing that these two soaps are a new formulation of a type which follows suit with all the other houses' reformulations. Apsley new formulation (with shea butter) will be out in maybe 4 to 6 weeks time. See above post.

 

[pjgh]

I am still quite actively working on this and have done a fair amount of cleaning up and rationalising with a lot of checking and re-checking against sources and posts from the relevant epochs.

I've managed to work back on the TOBS lines back to "if TOBS Traditional is not the same soap as CRS then I'll be a monkey's uncle" kinda posts, but not managed to land on an actual period picture of the soap showing the ingredients. What I have pieced together is what I think is a relationship between TOBS and the more EU focussed Edwin Jagger and Muhle. From that, I'm kinda working back believe that there is a common heritage from Boots (circa 2000s, if not 1990s) which appears to be the Standard Company formulation and that is used by Edwin Jagger/Muhle throughout, and I believe TOBS in their Traditional line pre-2011. What is interested is that, come 2011 and the acquisition of Standard Company by Soapworks, TOBS Traditional fell to the foamy Soapworks formulation while their mainstream line continued to produce sound lather. Furthermore, Edwin Jagger & Muhle maintain that pre-2011 Standard Company formulation throughout (up to 2024).

Say again? If you want to enjoy that pre-2011 Standard Company formulation then you'll find it in TOBS Traditional (noted in some posts above) but also if you have a pre-2024 reformulation of Edwin Jagger or Muhle then you've got a future vintage in your hands!

What I'm finding difficult when reading posts from back in the pre-2011 period, clearly folks were still reeling from the tallow to palm transition of many of these soaps and so, while from today's perspective we see these as "good" ... back then, no so much. In fact, I think back then it was rather regarded as going from a bad to worse situation when Soapworks took over. Nowadays, we just see the bad period as the Soapworks years and the Standard Company epoch prior to that as good. I know when I came to traditional shaving in 2013, rather excited that there were so many British offerings, I was rather brought down a tad by a general feeling that they're okay, used to be better and if I can land on some vintage Penhaligon's then that's where I should spend my money ... otherwise, don't bother. And, I didn't until I started looking into it a bit more and noticed that T&H was actually not on the dreaded Soapworks formulation any more ... and that it was rather good! That was circa 2018?

So, I'm leaving the European connection on the table simply because the family tree goes back to Boots who are a very established British name despite not being part of the London Cartel. M&S? Yes, I removed them from this table because it became apparent that the Apothecary package was actually made in China, but the soap itself bears all the hallmarks of that pre-2018 period Soapworks and it may be used under license or the rights acquired - either way, M&S and Bulldog both have this poor formulation. Actually, M&S Woodspice shaving soap has the same formulation and that goes back to maybe 2018? I'm just scratching my head as to where to put them and how it fits into the whole, but they are related to Soapwork formulation and I do need to do some more research on that. I think those lines will return @Geofnay

For the new new formulations that are unveiling themselves as we speak (the blue boxes), I think we can clearly identify three clans ... if that's the right wording. Tabac (first 2021), Speick, Muhle, Edwin Jagger and TOBS Mainstream all have a distinct similarity in their formulation (this is the link that I cited above that I was working backwards from back to Boots/Standard) and so I've boxed around all those - currently, New Formulation A/B/C. T&H with MWF & SFS have a very similar formulation (which does bear a lot of similarity with the first clan < read on) and I believe that Floris will come in line with this formulation (enriched with shea butter) once we know what that T&H Aspley reformulation looks like. I've boxed around that lot - currently, New Formulation D/E/F. Meanwhile, Trumpers are still in exile but we hope they'll come back in and likely be part of this lineage again. Finally, there's the tallow-based New Formulation G which at the moment only appears under the Captain Fawcett line, but they do have a link with DRH and so I believe we'll see this group expand once DRH and CRS unveil their new formulations.

Blimey! It's like tracking our Royal Family and finding throwbacks across European lines - think of the new formulations a bit like King Edward (T&H et al), Kaiser Wilhelm (TOBS, EJ, Muhle & Tabac) & Tsar Nicolas (who I suppose could be the tallow formulation) - they all kinda look the same and are clearly inter-related.

... an alternative vision of this might simply be "soap as a service" which will make some sense to folks who know the as a service model from the technology sector. Like spring water doesn't actually have to be from the spring itself but its precise constitution can be put together by any factory, anywhere (under license, of course). Maybe that's what we were seeing with the late tallow MWF crapness? I did say at the time that we don't actually know where the soap is made and it may not even be one factory. Maybe this is how we're seeing what appears to be quite clear Soapworks formulation for M&S being made in China.

Maybe, maybe, maybe ...

 

[pjgh]

Gawd! Culmak is a messy one to piece together ...

Using Wayback Machine and period posts circa 2009 onwards, I've got the following ingredient lists:

Legacy Stearate
Potassium Stearate, Sodium Stearate, Potassium Cocoate, Aqua (Water), Sodium Cocoate, Glycerine, Paraffinum Liquidum, Parfum (Fragrance), Tetrasodium EDTA, Pentasodium Pentetate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, CI 77891

post-2011?
Sodium Palmate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Cocoate, Sodium Stearate, Aqua (Water), Potassium Cocoate, Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), Linalool, Paraffinum Liquidum, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Geraniol, BHT, Limonene, Citronellol, CI77891

c.2018?
Potassium Palmate, Sodium Palmate, Potassium Stearate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Aqua (Water), Sodium Stearate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Kaolin, Palm Kernel Acid, Parfum (Fragrance), CI 77891, BHT, Pentasodium Pentetate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Benzyl Benzonte, Citronellol, Coumarin, Eugenol

Current
Sodium Cocoate, Aqua (Water), Glycerin, Coconut Acid, Parfum (Fragrance), Sodium Chloride, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Pentasodium Pentetate, Capry/Capramidopropyl Benaine, Paraffinium Liquidium, Zea Mays Oil, Tocopheryl Acetate, Benzyle Benzoate,Citronellol, Limonene, Linalool, CI 77891

Trying to present this in the table form is messy as parts just don't line up, but I'll figure it out. That, and the last three of these (of not all) formulations are the black bowl ... and so posts that say "the black bowl is crap, good, indifferent, quite good, something else" are very confusing.

Legacy stearate formulation is "the good one" and matches both TOBS and Floris in their pre-Soapworks formulations and lends some credence to the "they're all made by Culmak" knowledge that we've become used to ... but ... Culmak flip over to a very Soapworks-like formulation around the same time as everyone else and this accounts for the 2010s generally where Culmak is regarded as a bit crap.

But also, Culmak moved across to a different formulation which remained in effect until 2022 and this looks suspiciously like the same formulation that was in use by Edwin Jagger & Muhle and appears concurrent with Boots Shaving Bowl/Stick through the 2010s.

To my mind, that rather suggests that Culmak are in fact the customer of these various formulations rather than the supplier as previously thought. Most recently, Culmak have moved onto yet another formulation, which is cocoate-first and shared with EcoWarrior's formulation change around 2022 ... and this formulation bears some hallmarks to whatever the heck happened to C&S after the Valobra formulation. This is quite a tangle, but I think it absolutely does show Culmak as a customer rather than supplier.

 

[Boycie83]

Absolute nerdfest. Great work P!

 

[NatJag]

Taylor of Old Bond Street


... for Sandalwood (Cake): < taken from photo on Amazon TOBS Store
Potassium Palmate, Sodium Palmate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Aqua (Water), Parfum/Fragrance, Palm Kernel Fatty Acid, Sodium Chloride, Pentasodium Pentetate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Linalool, Coumarin, Geraniol, Limolene, Cinnamal, Citronellol, Benzyl Benzoate, Butylphenol Methylpropional, Citral, CI 77891 (Titanium Dioxide)

... the same as TOBS Traditional from Sharpologist's ingredient list and Vulfix (circa 2011) confirming in my mind that Sharpologist was referring to a much older formulation in his 2021 post! Like a ten year old plus formulation.

Yeah, I've looked for pictures of TOBS boxes and found just that on Amazon but without a date, it's a tough one to verify. You've provided the authenticity I needed for that soap. The Traditional might well have a different ingredient set from scant information I've found. The ingredient list here for the Sandalwood appears closer to the LEA 2017 Reformulation than any of its British siblings. As you can see from the table, Arran used a very similar formulation when they used to be called Arran Aromatics (rather than Arran Sense of Scotland as they are now) and also Edwin Jagger.

TOBS are a bit awkward, but I don't mind ... things that don't fit are often what leads us to look at the whole thing again from a different angle.

I've just checked my TOBS sandalwood box. Purchased around 2017, matching ingredients to the above quoted post.

I remember it started well, but after a break of using it, it was really difficult to get a decent lather. MWF (old tallow) is much easier than I remember my TOBS puck being.

My info probably wont help in the slightest.

 

[pjgh]

I've just checked my TOBS sandalwood box. Purchased around 2017, matching ingredients to the above quoted post.

I remember it started well, but after a break of using it, it was really difficult to get a decent lather. MWF (old tallow) is much easier than I remember my TOBS puck being.

My info probably wont help in the slightest.

Actually ... yes, and thank you very much.

It is interesting to note that the latter period of the 2010s, there was a general shift away from the poor Soapworks formulation. TOBS stand as reasonably unique here in that their pre-2016 was a known good while T&H, Floris, GFT, C&E & Pen's (and more) were all afllicted ... and indeed TOBS own Traditional line. In 2016 TOBS reformulated and their Traditional line (re)gained a formulation that appeared very close to the pre-2011 Standard formulation. In their mainstream line, this new formulation had moved away from Stearate and they're quite unique in that!

Actually, it matches Pre de Provence very well (which is also shea-enriched) and that in itself goes a long way to confirming that TOBS are more cozy, if you like, with the European lines than in keeping with the other London houses ... and that's just clicked into place. Funnily enough, their pre-2016 mainstream formulation bears some similarity to L'Occitane of that period. Perhaps my Royal lineage from Edward to Wilhelm to Nicolas analogy above is not actually that far from the mark!

Your hands-on experience tells us that actually, this was a retrograde step ... and so, their new reformulation (for 2024) is likely a very welcome step. Their current formulation is Stearate-first (no palm at all for the top ingredients) and again, quite unique amongst the London names. Many posts can easily be identified as "just bought a puck and it lathers well" and without tracking those people and making some kind of analysis of SOTD usage, it's impossible to know how they got on with it.

Again, thank you - really useful.

 

[pjgh]

Minor reshuffle of a few lines ...

... for readability.

Gangs of London

I've bunched the London Cartel (core) together at the top with Floris on the fringes as they appear to have some similarity with TOBS earlier on and lineage back to Culmak. Next bunch is TOBS and then the Muhle/Edwin Jagger gang who appear to have quite a lot of similarity and common history - this is the European link and I've noted the connection to Pre de Provence & L'Occitane here.

I've then got a section of "other" which is sort of about common roots (say, Culmak & Boots) and also lists M&S, Bulldog & EcoWarrior as connected. M&S current does say Made in China and appears to have the same formulation as Bulldog who are quite clear on their website around their involvement with China (on ethical grounds) but not as to exactly what the involvement is. I wonder if there's an "under license" and "under strict supervision" thing going on there? Dunno. I had to put Czech & Speake somewhere, so they follow on here ... what with their former Valobra formulation and tallow-based offerings.

Finally, the tallow stalwart - DR Harris and his merry associates Salter & Fawcett.

 

[pjgh]

Another rejig ...

... and probably best starting the other way up to explain this as I've been looking into Boots formulations going backwards and something interesting stands out! What's that? Well, despite having a formulation which looks very much like the Standard Company formulation from the 2000s and perhaps also the 1990s, I believe it is distinct. I believe that for two reasons: first, Boots did not switch over to the Soapworks formulation in 2011 but remained on that same formulation through to the last black bowl (I have a refill puck clearly showing this); second, this formulation can be found in the Edwin Jagger and Muhle lines going back to the very late 2000s (from posts I've found) and through the 2010s, again no switching to Soapworks.

... and that brings me to Culmak, who we have a vague notion that they were the producer behind the London Cartel, but as I said a few posts up I believe Culmak were a customer and not a supplier. But, I think we also knew that anyway as we do know that it was Standard Company behind the London Cartel soaps before Soapworks. That said, I am seeing a distinct similarity between Culmak's legacy formulation (which is Stearate-based) and TOBS & Floris through the 2000s. Perhaps this is where the rumour came from? Interestingly, Culmak went from this Stearate-based formulation to Soapworks in 2011 and then to a formulation that bears a strong resemblance to the legacy Boots Palmate formulation which we find in Muhle and Edwin Jagger (and many more, including Carthusia, De Vergulde Hand, Dr Dittmar and so on). Presently, they're on yet another formulation, shared by EcoWarrior which alas is known to be poor for shaving purposes.

What I'm also finding interesting is that TOBS appear to have survived through the Soapworks period unscathed. I guess we all assumed the whole of the London Cartel were affected by this blight, but the historical formulations I've found with known dates do not show this. Yes, their Traditional line (which I think includes the now discontinued Jermyn Street) was on the Soapworks formulation ... as was Floris through that period.

What else is interesting about TOBS is that their Traditional soap appears to have re-gained the Standard Company formulation towards the end of the 2010s ... or perhaps it is that legacy Boots formulation which is enjoyed by Muhle & Edwin Jagger. I have had the chance to lather with these respective soaps and on the face, I'd say TOBS Traditional is far more like pre-2011 Standard Company than it is present day Muhle or Edwin Jagger. Curious! I am working on another area of this map and may have something interesting there which might go some way to explaining this ... and suggest that Soapworks were perfectly capable of making a good shaving soap! Maybe.

So, we've got the Boots legacy that appears to have borne out as the mainstream German-centric European line and we've got what appears to be an alliance there with the European-leaning TOBS and Floris houses.

What we do know is that the Standard Company formulation was enjoyed by Penhaligon's (once folks had got over the move away from their tallow formualions), Crabtree & Evelyn and GFT; while T&H enjoyed an alternative Standard Company formulation shared by Vulfix, Salter, John Lewis and more. After suffering the market consequences of moving to the Soapworks formulations, both Penhaligon's and Crabtree & Evelyn gave up on shaving soaps during the 2010s, while GFT accepted a second Soapworks formulation towards the end of the 2010s which was equally poor. T&H, TOBS (Traditional line, remember their mainstream line seemed unaffected) and Floris all reformulated to a decent formulation with T&H also releasing a shea-enriched line alongside their mainstream line with some similarity to the new shea-enriched Floris soaps.

Meanwhile, DRH maintained its legacy Tallow-based formulation throughout and attracted new friends in Salter & Fawcett towards the end of the 2010s slash into the 2020s.

... and these alliances appear to be holding with the 2024 reformulations going on right now, which I've denoted with the blue boxes and outlined to group.

 

[Gairdner]

Marvellous thread gentlemen! Matron! MATRON! Oh, there you are. Pills please, my head hurts. It’s all that Kaiser Wilhelm’s fault. Hmmph!

 

[pjgh]

Cheers! I drop these little quirks in to see if people are actually reading

 

[pjgh]

I've noticed something potentially interesting while researching Penhaligon's ...

I've been back over my sources for this several times and having initially ignored it as an anomaly, I've got to the point that I just can't. The dates just don't stack up and actually tell a different story.

Pen's (as we know) had a superb tallow formulation which at some point in the 2000s moved over to a palmate formulation, quite the drama in its day! I have dated evidence of tallow as late as 2004 but we do know that the Standard Company palmate formulation was certainly in place by 2011 when that company was acquired by Soapworks and the real drama started.

Tallow Formulation (Older?) < concurrent formulation with C&E refill box with 1978 specified
Sodium Tallowate, Sodium Palmate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Potassium Palmate, Sodium Cocoate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Aqua (Water), Parfum (Fragrance), Glycerin, Sodium Chloride, Titanium Dioxide, Disodium Distyrlbiphenyl Disuphonate, Sodium Gluconate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Pentasodium Pentetate, Citral, Geraniol, CI 11680, CI 12490

Tallow Formulation (Newer?) < from a refill box with 2004 specified
Potassium Tallowate, Sodium Tallowate, Aqua (Water), Potassium Cocoate, Sodium Cocoate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Stearate, Parfum (Fragrance), Glycerin, Sodium Chloride, Titanium Dioxide, Sodium Silicate, Magnesium Suphate, Sodium Gluconate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Tetrasodium Etidronate, CI 74160, CI 11710, CI 11690, CI 74260, CI 12480

Standard Company Formulation (pre-2011)
Potassium Palmate, Sodium Palmate, Potassium Stearate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Aqua (Water), Sodium Stearate, Glycerine, Parfum (Fragrance), Palm Kernel Acid, Limonene, Paraffinum Liquidum, Linalool, Isoproyl Myristate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Sodium Chloride, Hexyl Cinnamal, Geraniol, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Pentasodium Pentetate, Hydroxycitronellal, BHT, Citronellol, Sodium Hydroxide, CI 77891 (Titanium Dioxide), CI 77492 & CI77499 (Iron Oxides)

Soapworks Formulation (2011 onwards)
Sodium Palmate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Cocoate, Sodium Stearate, Aqua (Water), Potassium Cocoate, Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), Tetrasodium ETDA, Sodium Chloride, Alpha-Isomethyl Ionene, Linalool, Citronellol, Coumarin, Bisabolol, Tocopheryl Acetate, Evernia Prunastri (Oakmoss) Extract, Amyl Cinnamal, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Geraniol, Eugenol, Limonene, Benzyl Benzoate, CI 77891 (Titanium Dioxide), CI 77289 (Chromium Hydroxide Green), CI 19140 (Yellow 5 Lake), CI 77492 (Iron Oxides), CI 77007 (Ultramarines)

... and dated posts from forums are full of consternation for the reformulation which is wholly accepted as terrible. In fact, it is remarked that Pen's went from great (tallow) to good (tallow reformulation) to "bad" (palmate formulation) ... I say "bad" but in time, regarded as "good" ... and then to "absolutely, most definitely bad" (Soapworks).

But here's where something interesting happens ...

c.2014 and forums are once again speaking of Pen's as being "good" again. Like Pen's have "listened to feedback and acted accordingly" and this was something I could not ignore. I've narrowed it down to both the Sartorial and Bayolea soaps which have the following formulation:

Potassium Palmate, Sodium Palmate, Potassium Stearate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Aqua (Water), Sodium Stearate, Glycerine, Parfum (Fragrance), Palm Kernel Acid, Limonene, Paraffinum Liquidum, Linalool, Isoproyl Myristate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Sodium Chloride, Hexyl Cinnamal, Geraniol, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Pentasodium Pentetate, Hydroxycitronellal, BHT, Citronellol, Sodium Hydroxide, CI 77891 (Titanium Dioxide), CI 77492 & CI77499 (Iron Oxides)

... which looks suspiciously like the Standard Company formulation.

Okay, so how do they release new soaps using a formulation that was consigned to history by a new sodium-only formulation which caused absolute chaos and uproar across the board with our prided London names? Sartorial in 2013 and Bayolea in 2014.

What this suggests to me is that Soapworks were actually entirely capable of making a "good" shaving soap! ... did they just choose not to?

Furthermore, this perhaps explains just how TOBS Traditional manages to recapture that original Standard Company formulation as late as their c.2016? 2018? reformulation away from the Soapworks formulation that had been in place since 2011 on that line.

Perhaps it was an entirely different producer that was mixing up that older formulation ... but what is curious from this fact is: (a) Pen's seemingly chucked in the towel with shaving soaps around 2015 or 2016 despite apparently landing on a good formulation/supplier when everyone else was stuck with the crap formulation from Soapworks; (b) nobody else jumped onto this revived formulation when it was quite clear that the Soapworks formulation was a complete dud!

Maybe it was just that Pen's had been preparing for their Sartorial and Bayolea releases some years prior and had amassed a yet to be released stock before the Soapworks acquisition and so were able to appear to release a "good" soap during that period but were unable to get their other lines off the crap formulation.

Does anyone have a confirmed Blenheim Bouquest or English Fern from as late as 2013 or 2014? Confirmed, as in actually dated rather than just "bought some old stock around that time"?

 

[Sabre]

I believe Penhaligon's used to made by the Floris subsidiary Broad Oak Toiletries then moved to Soapworks before Broad Oak was closed. At the time ebay was flooded with Penhaligon shaving soaps sold by sellers based in Scotland.

I have quite a few Penhaligon shaving soaps in storage. They were either bought from the aforementioned ebay sellers or the Outlet store in York.

 

[pjgh]

I believe Penhaligon's used to made by the Floris subsidiary Broad Oak Toiletries then moved to Soapworks before Broad Oak was closed. At the time ebay was flooded with Penhaligon shaving soaps sold by sellers based in Scotland.

I have quite a few Penhaligon shaving soaps in storage. They were either bought from the aforementioned ebay sellers or the Outlet store in York.

Yeah, I recall visiting the York outlet not long after I came to traditional shaving ... but in those days the idea of £30 plus for a soap sounded ridiculously extravagant to me. Little did I know ...

I also read about the Scottish connection and some folks thought it was Scottish Fine Soaps, but that turned out not to be right. By the way, Scottish Fine Soaps had a fantastic tallow-based soap through the end of the 2000s and into the 2010s which was very much like MWF. They switched to what appears to be a T&H related formulation ... and also with their 2024 re-formulation. That shows a connection there. That, and given MWF moved over to a T&H related formulation in 2023 and then again in 2024, I think we could stretch that relationship (between SFS and MWF) backwards a suggest they too might be related.

Anyway, this Floris connection that you mention ...

Broad Oak. Thank you. That's given me another line of investigation and has prompted looking from a different angle. I'd previously connected Pen's with C&E and GFT. Maybe their move to Soapworks was a tad later than the rest as its clear that new releases in 2013 and 2014 were still on a "good" formulation. Goodness known why they picked Soapworks as it must have been clear by then that it was a bad choice!

 

[pjgh]

So, the Broad Oak Toiletries thing brings an interesting line of investigation ...

I had no real explanation as to why there were two quite similar formulations in play prior to 2011 and had supposed that they were alternative formulations of Standard. I actually had the Standard formulation listed as "Standard B" while what I now believe is the Broad Oak formulation was listed as "Standard". I'm rejigging the graphic, which is now quite complex as there are two seismic events in the 2010s - first, 2011 when Standard Company were acquired by Soapworks; second 2016 with the closure of Broad Oak Toiletries and subsequent purchase by Potter & Moore (part of Creightons) but I think it was the closure rather than the acquisition that had the more profound effect upon the shaving soaps at the time.

We know GFT, T&H and TOBS (the three T's) were on the Standard formulation.
We know that Pen's were on the Broad Oak formulation around the same time ...

This now absolutely explains why Pen's were able to show a continued good formulation past 2011 and perhaps why formulations appeared to revert back to a Broad Oak-like formulation later on, which I'd previously been unable to rationalise. Something also happened around 2018, but I've yet to find the explanation. Tracing the formulations through it might well be that the P&M acquisition of Broad Oak finally led to a viable formulation that bore a very strong resemblance to the pre-2016.

Much thanks @Sabre

While I rebuild the graphics, I wonder if anyone has direct experience of the TOBS formulation prior to 2018 which reads as:

Sodium Palmate, Potassium Palmate, Aqua (Water), Sodium Cocoate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Parfum (Fragrance), Palm Kernel Fatty Acid, Sodium Chloride, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Pentasodium Pentetate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Linalool, Coumarin, Geraniol, Limonene, Cinnamal, Citronellol, CI 77891 (Titanium Dioxide)

While it bears considerable resemblance to a Soapworks formulation, I'm struggling to actually find anyone who said it was bad ... other than connecting evidence on the Floris line where folks seemed joyous that the (new) formulation in 2018 was now "good again".

Anyone?

Thanks @NatJag for recounting your experience of the post-2016 TOBS formulation.

 

[pjgh]

Taking into account the two seismic events during the 2010s: first, 2011 when Standard Company were acquired by Soapworks; second 2016 with the closure of Broad Oak Toiletries (at the time under parent company Floris) and subsequent purchase of assets and stock by Potter & Moore (part of Creightons) but I think it was the closure rather than the acquisition that had the more profound effect upon the shaving soaps at the time.

Again, does anyone have direct experience of the TOBS formulation prior to 2018 which reads as:

Sodium Palmate, Potassium Palmate, Aqua (Water), Sodium Cocoate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Parfum (Fragrance), Palm Kernel Fatty Acid, Sodium Chloride, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Pentasodium Pentetate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Linalool, Coumarin, Geraniol, Limonene, Cinnamal, Citronellol, CI 77891 (Titanium Dioxide)

While it bears considerable resemblance to a Soapworks formulation, I'm struggling to actually find anyone who said it was bad ... other than connecting evidence on the Floris line where folks seemed joyous that the (new) formulation in 2018 was now "good again".