First attempt at a re-knot. With the occasional photo.

DevonStan

DevonStan

Joined
Monday February 2, 2015
Location
UK
I can't, for the life of me, imagine who wouldn't be tripping over themselves to see the progress of this astoundingly interesting topic.

A lovely little handle courtesy of you know who which I had knocking about with a silvertip knot that shed profusely. It was, I believe, a 2213.

I sought advice, and received plenty, and, amongst other views, Big Boar recommended The Turners Workshop "Best" so I have a 22mm "Best" knot arriving soon. £15.69 delivered thank you very much.

Pulled out the hair with pliers (should have just cut it of with scissors) and drilled the plug out with a flat bit and tidied it up with an odd rotary raspy type thing I had in the toolbox.

I sought further opinion about the glue and decided upon the Devcon 2 ton waterproof in separate tubes. Ebay had a particular model maker who was selling the twin pack for £4.80 inc. delivery and it arrived today...albeit with sticky deposits all over the (distinctly grubby) packaging and they have kindly offered to send another. All credit to them.

As per further advice I'll trim the socket as reqired and rough up the inside and start with small amounts of glue so as not to get it overspilling the top. It's not the 5 minute set glue so should have time to adjust the amount of glue . I'll tape up the knot to indicate the required depth and tape up the top of the handle too.

Any suggestions as to how deep to set the (22mm) knot?

This also serves as a practice session to load the photos...something which has taken me ages to get the hang of.

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Put tape around the entire knot and down to the glued base then mark the tape with a pen for depth. What sort of knot is it - fan, bulb, flat. The depth of hole in the handle is determined by subtracting the loft you want from the total height of the knot. If you drill deeper, you can pack it with coins of the required thickness.

22m Best bulb - I'd guess about 48 - 49mm but it depends on the feel of the knot - how well packed, how much backbone, longer as you like 'em soft.

Looks like you have a ridge in the bottom of the nest so make sure it is covered in epoxy. You have an air hole which will also take any excess epoxy. I'd smear the sides, put a narrow bead around the ridge and little blobs around the hole. Insert gentle with a slight twist down to your mark. Leave alone for 24 hours - do not touch, test, admire, prod, poke, pull, knock over - leave alone!

Good luck! It's very easy once you've done the first.
 
Thanks, Carl....see here :- http://www.theturnersworkshop.co.uk...ojects/best-badger-fur-shaving-knot-22mm.html

I would have said it was a bulb but it doesn't say.

In reality there's not a ridge... just the way it comes across in the pic. The "air hole" is, of course, the point of the flat bit as you prob. gathered.

Point taken re. smearing the walls and a bead round the ridge and blobs around the hole.

As you say, I like soft, so maybe 50mm?? That's probably the maximum though?? Any more than that sounds a bit floppy perhaps?? Trouble is I've never seen or felt a bare knot so won't really know how dense or firm it is compared to others....but I accept that and as it's a first attempt I hope to learn from any mistakes. (I'm sure there'll be one or two).

Slightly uncertain about the tape... you're saying go down the whole length of the knot down to the plug and mark with a pen...but I'm sure you don't want the tape left in place during final installation., you obviously want me to remove the tape up as far the pen mark at the point of final installation?

Fido's knot was set in a really effective, hard, cream coloured glue mix. It was nearly as hard as the handle material itself. I asked him what he used but he just said ...."any waterproof glue and I use one that comes in a big tin".... so I'm no wiser about what it was in there. Don't know why it shed like it did - presumably due the glue that the knot maker used, or any one of a dozen other reasons?

Ta.
 
The idea of the tape is to protect the hairs from excessive use of epoxy - an impression I got when you first spoke of this project. You should be able to remove it easily enough - after 24 hours - just by spiralling it out. I'm thinking masking tape, not packing tape!

At that price the knot won't be well packed - other users will know better than I what they are like - so I'm guessing a little under 50mm would be about right. You could jam the knot into the handle using some masking tape as packer and try it out at various lofts - but ensure complete dryness before finally epoxying it in.

The epoxy you've chosen is waterproof glue - as long as you get the proportions right. Little blobs!
 
Little blobs it is! :)

Quite looking forward to cracking on with it.

I placed myself at the mercy of those who know about these things and went for a knot recommended by Big Boar. I could have bought one from shavemac ...a 22mm Finest bulb is £52 delivered or the 2 band silvertip is £79 ... but as it's my first I didn't want to risk getting it wrong and chucking money down the pan...and in reality I only wanted to put Fido's handle to use rather than looking at it in the drawer. I could have gone for a Whipped Dog synthetic or similar but already have a Plisson 22m synth. plus the syths and badgers you know about so I thought this might feel a bit different and gives me a little experience and keeps me off the streets.
 
The knot arrived very promptly from The Turners Workshop. It's a "Best" 22mm one. Feels very soft when dry and I haven't wet it yet to know what it's like in use.

It's glued in place now but I admit it didn't just drop in place. The glue plug at at base of the knot was pretty much 22mm and so only just wanted to go in the hole I'd initially provided - so I opened it up a bit but the main issue was that the diameter of the "hair" part of the knot opened up considerably once clear of the plug. I finished up tapering the socket as best I could and the opening of the socket is now drilled out to nearer 25 mm and even then the knot is a tight fit at the opening...so much so that that the width of the hair still stops the knot sitting fully in and resting on the socket base therefore I had to use a little extra glue at the base of the socket. A thin spacer might have gone in there...but it would have had to be fairly thin and I feel happy enough with it as it is. I could have made the opening even wider but as it happens I have finished up with a loft of 48mm (give or take) therefore it didn't want to sit much deeper in the socket anyway.

There was just a tiny hint of glue becoming visible at the top of the socket as I twisted the knot into place but not enough to worry about and the glue is completely clear so you couldn't see it anyway...but I'm pretty sure it's not gonna fall out as there's no shortage of glue holding it in. The glue (Devcon 2 ton 30 minute set) was no problem at all and the extra time it allowed (ie 30 minutes) meant there wan't any panic. It was of a nice thickness too...neither too runny nor too thick....just right in fact.

The knot is now set approx 12mm in the socket, the loft is 48mm and the overall height is about 96 or maybe 97mm high. and the handle width is around 35mm. So not a big brush....smaller that I would say is ideal...but it was mildly entertaining getting it done and it will be interesting to see how it shapes up in use...both straight away and after a few months.

It would have been much easier with better tools...flat bits aren't ideal. But it's done. Can't see why I would keep doing more but I had the handle and as it was one of Fido's it was a shame to bin it....so job jobbed.

Thanks for the advice received....appreciated.
 
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Indeed so...but I'll wait till tomorrow when it's light. Have been out all day and, being impatient, did it as soon as I got in. The glue will be set enough to handle it tomorrow although I'll give it a few days before use.

I'll be sorry if it sheds or scratches but I suppose that's a chance we take. But if it's soft and pleasant on the face and keeps it hairl I'll start to wonder why I just bought two shavemacs for ...cough... £'s when this knot was around £15 plus a bit of glue and whatever a spare handle is worth.
 
Sorry if I've not been clear...the measurement from the top of the knot to the top of the handle is 48mm. The knot is set about 12mm inside the handle. The overall height of the brush is 96/97mm.


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Yes...certainly feels soft when dry...but that's hardly the acid test.

It lost a few hairs when I flicked it this morning but seems to have stabilised...perhaps they all do that after installation.
It's 12 hours since it was done... My impatience dictates I'd like to give it a go but I suppose it ought to wait at least until tomorrow?
 
24 hours on from the glue job...it's had it's first couple of hand washes with shampoo and hand soap and a proper lather using Catie's Bubbles Bailey's Irish Cream... (Yummmy).

I've measured, with reasonable accuracy, the width of the handle opening and therefore the diameter of the hair as it emerges from the handle. The hair is a tight fit in the handle. 25mm. I'm a bit perplexed there. As mentioned earlier, the manufacturers glue plug at the base of the supplied knot was 22mm but the hair seemed to expand outwards to such an extent that the handle had to be drilled to 25mm to accommodate the hair. Without drilling it out the knot simply would not go into the socket.

Certainly felt remarkably soft when dry and when wet and soaped up there's just a tiny hint of tingle on the face if pressed/splayed into the skin...otherwise it's soft when drawing circles or painting. Not that dissimilar in principle to how I found the Paladin 2015 LE to be. Not 100% soft tips like the two shavemacs are or like the Thater was (before I sold it)....but just a bit more very fine 'needles' on the skin when dabbed. It lathered up just as well as any of the other brushes I've used to date but I never have trouble getting a reasonable lather here with water this soft and provided I face lather for long enough to get the 'youhurt' consistency. I wouldn't think that the experts here would regard it as having a lot of backbone nor be very dense ...it would be interesting to know.... but it looks as though it'll do the job and, for the small outlay, it was well worth doing...and I expect the tips will soften a bit more in time. Certainly there's a difference in the feel of the knot compared to the shavemacs (especially the 26mm fan)...but whether the shavemacs are six times better is a matter of opinion.... £20 for the knot including delivery and glue versus £115 - £120 each for the others (admittedly I haven't accounted for the cost of a handle there).

It's not especially smelly...not bad at all. It has shed at least a dozen hairs, perhaps two dozen, during the washing and first use in anger...which was a bit disconcerting but after the final lather and a good rinse it seems to have stopped (for the time being?).

Thanks again for advice received.

Here it is as it dries out this evening...and indeed it seems to drying remarkably quickly - perhaps a sign it's not all that dense?


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That post bloom pic looks remarkably similar in shape to an old Rooney "heritage" brush. The tips obviously look much different.

The thicker the knot, the longer it takes to dry. Loft height doesn't seem to have much of an impact, but my 24mm knots seem to take twice as long to dry as my 18 and 20mm knots.
 
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