Heineken Cup - English & French

jb74

jb74

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I'm curious to hear some opinions from English rugby fans regarding the threat of English and French clubs to pull out of the competition.

Admittedly I've only been watching this from a far and I'm also Irish, so might be a bit biased. 'Greed' is the main description I've seen floating about, but I'm guessing it might be just Scots, Welsh and Irish that are thinking this.

So, thoughts and opinions please?
 
Being a huge Rugby fan all my life I keep very much up to date with all the Rugby politics that's happening, and being a Welshman living in Wales breaking Rugby news is bigger headlines than the death of Nelson Mandela, I'll leave you a few links from Walesonline regarding this subject.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/european-rugby-crisis-irish-legend-6473577

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-sets-out-case-against-6467258

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-regions-want-join-rugby-6466591
 
It's a hard one to assess, with money, and not rugby, being the driver.

Looking at some proposals, if everyone left the Heineken Cup and all the same teams played in the Rugby Champions Cup then everyone would supposedly make more money. But if you ask yourself what has really changed, same teams playing in a rugby competition with a different name, then it has to be factors such as television contracts and high courts. It's sad that the game would go this way... well, it already has for the most part.

Wales have been hit hardest with player defecting to France and to a lesser extent England... Jonathan Sexton was Ireland's first high profile defection, he says he wanted to stay but the IRFU were messing around too much... can't blame him if that were the case.

Leinster, Munster and Ulster have all had a relatively decent amount of success in recent years, I'm just wondering how all this will affect Irish rugby... it feels like we may have the most to lose, but it's hard to tell because nobody has really put the big picture out there that encompasses all 6 countries.
 
jb74 said:
I'm curious to hear some opinions from English rugby fans regarding the threat of English and French clubs to pull out of the competition.

Admittedly I've only been watching this from a far and I'm also Irish, so might be a bit biased. 'Greed' is the main description I've seen floating about, but I'm guessing it might be just Scots, Welsh and Irish that are thinking this.

So, thoughts and opinions please?
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I don't think you can sum up the position of the English and French clubs in just one word -'greed'. Their main bone of contention is the guaranteed places from the Robot Direct league - they view this as detrimental in that Scottish and Italian clubs are guaranteed two places each that are hardly deserved based on performance. Additionally, the Irish teams are considered to be at an advantage in that they are also almost certain to qualify for the cup and can, therefore, rest their players so that they are fresh for the Heineken games.

In England and France it's generally the owners who are financing the sport and providing the platform for developing the players that generate the interest in the money spinning internationals. The clubs cannot survive without this income but there would be no international game without the clubs. If you were an owner and wanted to change what you see as almost a closed shop competition, you certainly would not class it as being greedy - more like just wanting a fair share of the cake.
 
Just for the record... its not my personal opinion that 'greed' is the main motivation here, I'm actually trying to get my head around the whole thing.

It just feels that each Union/Governing Body/Representative is acting in their own best interest, and therefore we're not seeing an accurate picture of who stands to gain what (or at least I'm not) .

You could argue things like... if you don't give Scotland and Italy places in the competition, where does that leave rugby in these countries both from a financial and development standpoint? Also, the rugby population is so small in Ireland (it's 4th preference sport in this country behind hurling, gaelic football and soccer) we don't have the player pool to be sending players out in every game. We were like dead men walking in last year's 6 Nations... Jonny Sexton gets injured and we're not exactly glowing in the depth chart.

The whole thing seems like a mess. Personally I do get the sense that the whole thing is fueled by money... and whenever money is a motivator then greed will not to too far behind, simply because they go hand in hand. But the whole thing is so blurry right now its hard to make a judgement on it.
 
Club owners are businessmen - it's not their job to provide development funding - that's down to the National bodies. Both the French and English clubs gave notice of their intention to quit the current arrangement in accordance with the agreement with European Club Rugby. Whist I agree that money is one of the motivators, I don't see that as a problem - the French and English clubs are trying to maximise their interests which is a perfectly understandable position.
 
Another good read, specific to the problems in Wales -

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/gwyn-jones-wont-please-many-6482095 (some very good user comments also)

(Christ, I never before got caught up much in rugby politics... the Welsh are in a right state)

Club owners are businessmen
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Urghh... and rugby ends up with it's version of Glasgow Rangers, Portsmouth, Leeds etc. It can't be all about the businessmen, the sport has to be at the forefront.

I'm assuming that there are folk in France getting aggrieved by the number of foreign players feeding into their club teams?

Vincent Tan anyone?
 
You have explained that very well indeed, Rob.

It's not greedy to want to re balance the wealth distribution when you perceive the current situation as totally unfair. Of course money is one of the motivators, hand in hand with a desire for excellence.

Too many sub-standard teams with easy access to the Cup year on year is not good for the championship. Tigers were on the red button on Saturday - because they were playing an Italian team and that attracts a very small audience, doesn't generate much money, doesn't bring out the best in the players - but risks injury ahead of a very big game next weekend - a do or die match.
 
but risks injury ahead of a very big game next weekend - a do or die match
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This makes no sense. So.. they should have just given them the win without playing the game at all... because their opponents don't deserve to be there and they have a more important game next week. I don't get it.

That's like saying Celtic shouldn't have been allowed played Barcelona twice in last years Champions League group stage.

Maybe they should kick Scotland and Italy out of the six nations too... seeing as, for the most part, they're just making up the numbers?

It's not greedy to want to re balance the wealth distribution when you perceive the current situation as totally unfair.
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But looking at clubs like Toulon... how does private financing to buy in top players from around the world benefit the game in the Northern hemisphere? Look what this sort of practice has done to the English national football team. There has to be more to this than just business?
 
jb74 said:
but risks injury ahead of a very big game next weekend - a do or die match
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This makes no sense. So.. . I don't get it.

T

It's not greedy to want to re balance the wealth distribution when you perceive the current situation as totally unfair.
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But looking at clubs like Toulon... how does private financing to buy in top players from around the world benefit the game in the Northern hemisphere?
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For the first part, you make that apparent. Good teams don't want to risk players getting injured. That happens lot when playing inferior teams. You need two thoughts in your head simultaneously - money and excellence.

For the second part, stick to what we are taking about, please.
 
Good teams don't want to risk players getting injured.
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And bad teams do?

Not sure what your point is? You can get injured no matter what team you play - good, bad or indifferent. Are you saying that top players should only have to play top teams? Clubs can choose what players they field based on whats in front of them.

Besides.. didn't Leicester have to come from behind to beat Benetton? Must have been exciting for someone... and the fact that Benetton were beating them at half time, surely Leicester needed their top players to perform.

stick to what we are taking about, please.
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Eh.. What has this not got to do with the conversation that I started? I'm not sure you've actually truly contributed anything useful to this debate yourself... but you want me to stop talking about Toulon's liberal spending strategy. LOL
 
The Welsh rugby public have always had reservations about the Rabbo league collectively we don't like the fact that almost everyone except the bottom two get to play in the Heineken cup, both Ireland and Wales have always stop the lowest finishing teams from their countries playing in the Heineken cup Connacht and the Newport Dragons, If you ask the majority of Welsh rugby supporters they want only the top 6 teams out of that league to play in the Heineken cup even if that means no Welsh teams, places in the competition should be based on merit it's one of the reasons that the games in Wales are poorly supported because there doesn't seem to be much riding on them, but If the Welsh regions play one another they tend to be full houses because there are hardly any overseas players in the Welsh teams and they see these games as kind of Welsh trials.
 
What you're saying certainly has it's merits Jamie... it would make the Rabo a lot more competitive and probably the Heineken too.

But, imagine a Welsh, Scottish or Italian team didn't qualify for Heineken Cup... where does that leave rugby in the respective countries? (That's a rhetorical question btw). Could they afford to go a year without a team in the competition (hypothetically speaking)? More of their best players would be gobbled up by Europe's elite. Welsh rugby has already undergone an awful lot of erosion even with all the representatives they have in the Heinken cup, although the national team haven't fared too bad ;-)

It's totally messed up no matter what angle you come at it, but I don't think capitalism is the cure to the problems in the game. Money is a necessary evil, but there has to be a balance.

*EDIT*

Just a point of interest re: money & excellence ->

Toulon's starting 15 for last season's HC final, 4 french players* -

Toulon:
Sheridan
Hayman
Bruno*
Botha
Kennedy
Rossouw
Fernandez Lobbe
Masoe
Tillous-Borde*
Wilkinson
Palisson*
Giteau
Bastareaud*
Wulf
D. Armitage
 
jb74 said:
But, imagine a Welsh, Scottish or Italian team didn't qualify for Heineken Cup... where does that leave rugby in the respective countries? More of their best players would be gobbled up by Europe's elite. Welsh rugby has already undergone an awful lot of erosion even with all the representatives they have in the Heinken cup, although the national team haven't fared too bad ;-)
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Players will inevitably follow the money - this is why it's so difficult a balancing act for the Welsh RU at the moment. Take the example from last week - Toby Flood was fully aware that by moving to France he was forfeiting the opportunity to play for England - his choice and he obviously chose to take the money on offer. If the Welsh RU tried to impose the same rules it would result in something like half the senior players being unavailable. When you consider the financial inducements that an Anglo/Welsh league has to offer, it's no wonder that the Welsh Regions are looking with interest.
 
When you consider the financial inducements that an Anglo/Welsh league has to offer, it's no wonder that the Welsh Regions are looking with interest.
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If the Welsh RU tried to impose the same rules it would result in something like half the senior players being unavailable
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It could end up very messy if the WRU don't give the Regions their blessing. The WRU may have their hand forced. And if an Anglo/Welsh league was formed... where does that leave Italy, Ireland & Scotland.

Donal Lenihan may have a very valid point when he says this will drip down and affect others.
 
jb74 said:
And if an Anglo/Welsh league was formed... where does that leave Italy, Ireland & Scotland.
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In much the same situation that Scottish and Irish football is in. You have to say that the Premiership is a better place for Swansea and Cardiff to play in and cricket also benefits from having a Welsh county. Now I know this is getting off the track, but what if Celtic also played in the Premiership - would that be better for them as a club and also for their fans?

At the end of the day it's commercial reality as much as tradition that will drive changes in how and where the competitions are played. We should not rule out the possibility of a European wide league or even leagues. It's feasible to see a premier and second division of the main European clubs with promotion and relegation. I'm back on to Rugby here again. If the clubs were guaranteed bigger crowds for these matches, it would not take much to offset the additional travel expenses.
 
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