The European Union: in or out?

[chrisbell]

I would, however, ask a partly rhetorical question - if we are saying that there's no such thing as a bad decision in a democracy (which comprises millions of individuals), then, by extension, we must also say that one of those individuals ought not be dissuaded from making a decision, as any such dissuasion must be selfish not altruistic as there's no such thing as a dangerously wrong decision!:icon_rolleyes: Would you agree with that, or do you consider that if you saw someone wandering distractedly towards a cliff edge you might shout a warning?

You are over thinking things Chris by trying to link the terms right and wrong with democracy, they are subjective terms while democracy is a political process. Democracy simply reflects the will of the people; that will may be regarded by others both within and outside of that society as wrong (or right) but it is still the will of the people.

I wasn't referring to morally "wrong" or "right", apologies if that was what you meant. I was referring to empirical mistakes, such as my example of walking towards a cliff edge without keeping an eye open for where you're going. I don't think even the most post-modern relativist could argue with a straight face that such a decision could be thought of as anything other than a big mistake and therefore the wrong decision.

 

[Eeyore68]

Re: RE: The European Union: in or out?

I heard Peter Mandleson on the today programme some weeks ago and he seemed to be suggesting that a referendum would be dangerous as the public might get it wrong, for me that sums up the whole problem with politics today. The politicians are only happy with the idea of democracy if it is going to yield them the result they want.

Our "fault", in a way ...

We did have a referendum about the EU constitution, in 2004 I believe.

We voted "no", and according to our politicians, that was wrong ... because we had not understood the question. Yes, really.

So that was the end of referendums in the EU, it seems.

Politicians who don't dare to give a voice to the people they represent, that's what we've got. Leaders who cannot explain the political situation, and who cannot present a future that the people understand. And then they are surprised that the people walk off to populist parties.

 

[Rev-O]

us (UK)to bailing out Eire to the tune of 7 +Billion

It's a loan... we're paying it back with interest ;-)

Ah, the proud and noble Fenian republic, free from the overweaning interventions of Britain!

An independent Ireland indeed! ;-)

Gosh Ollie, don't let offending a whole nation hold you back for a moment!

I do find it very sad (tragic? infuriating? ironic?) that the nationalists and republicans fought (literally) for a free Eire, only to first throw their lot in with the EU (and, arguably, throw their cherished independence away - or at least lose a lot of sovereignty) and, second, come cap in hand to Britain for a loan.

All that terrible history of struggle and uprisings and the Troubles only to end up like this. :-(

Maybe the whole idea of the nation state is over, as a concept and practise: there are exceptions (Norway, Switzerland) but economies of scale (by which I really mean the sheer scale of economies) is all that matters now. Money talks. And money wins.

Local identity (be it "national" or "regional" or whatever) will be reduced to a few folk costumes put on for the tourists; but the real loss is democratic.

I believe in the devolution of democracy down to the smallest possible unit, so your vote counts for more and so there's more accountability and attention to the specifics and particularities of locality (be it nation or region). The EU has a real democratic deficit; fine, if you want to live in the most economically efficient way with an economy of scale but not so fine if you believe in democracy and/or the culture of your region.

We already have this problem in the UK: Scotland may or may not go its own way; Wales is a "nation" on par with Italy and France (at least for the purposes of rugby) and both have some degree of autonomy with elected assemblies. England suffers from the "West Lothian question" and a lack of positive national identity. Yet we are "one" nation (or are we? Discuss.) Then there's the issue of that "one" entity (the UK) being in the EU (or not. Discuss with reference to your parents' marriage.)

It's a bit like Russian dolls - although with the situation in the Ukraine at the moment that may be an unfortunate metaphor.

For what it's worth, I'd vote to get us out of the EU. It's the worst of both worlds: the faceless, soulless money-driven agenda of the free marketeers combined with the corruption and inefficiencies of state-subisidies, all hidden behind an opaque and unaccountable (often unelected, like Peter Mandelson) bureaucracy.

No thanks!

 

[Rev-O]

I heard Peter Mandleson on the today programme some weeks ago and he seemed to be suggesting that a referendum would be dangerous as the public might get it wrong, for me that sums up the whole problem with politics today. The politicians are only happy with the idea of democracy if it is going to yield them the result they want.

Our "fault", in a way ...

We did have a referendum about the EU constitution, in 2004 I believe.

We voted "no", and according to our politicians, that was wrong ... because we had not understood the question. Yes, really.

So that was the end of referendums in the EU, it seems.

Politicians who don't dare to give a voice to the people they represent, that's what we've got. Leaders who cannot explain the political situation, and who cannot present a future that the people understand. And then they are surprised that the people walk off to populist parties.

Not quite.

"The Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe (TCE), (commonly referred to as the European Constitution or as the Constitutional Treaty), was [. . . .] was signed on 29 October 2004 by representatives of the then 25 member states of the European Union. It was later ratified by 18 member states, which included referendums endorsing it in Spain and Luxembourg. However the rejection of the document by French and Dutch voters in May and June 2005 brought the ratification process to an end.

Following a period of reflection, the Treaty of Lisbon was created to replace the Constitutional Treaty. This contained many of the changes that were originally placed in the Constitutional Treaty but was formulated as amendments to the existing treaties. Signed on 13 December 2007, the Lisbon Treaty entered into force on 1 December 2009."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitution_for_Europe

So, yes, Holland and France voted against it but were then given it by the back door (as they say) - the Constitution being renamed as the mundane-sounding Lisbon Treaty, which was ratified and implemented without any referendums (except by Ireland, see below).

A full re-run was held when Irish voters rejected the Treaty of Nice by 53.9% in 2001; a year later they accepted the same unmodified Treaty by 62.9%.

Basically, the EU either keep asking till they get the answer they want or force it on you by other means and under another name.

(Ireland also had two votes on the Treaty of Lisbon on 2008 and 2009, and Denmark had two goes at ratifying the Maastricht Treaty but to be fair both treaties were modified with various opt-outs before the second plebiscite so they were not "like-for-like" re-runs. It is disingenuous of Eurosceptics to claim them as such.)

 

[SoapAlchemist]

Seems those borrowing Irish spent all that borrowed money investing in their rugby team!

 

[joe mcclaine]

Rev-O, are you applying for job of The Chap's political correspondent now that watches and shaving has been done to death?

 

[Rev-O]

Rev-O, are you applying for job of The Chap's political correspondent now that watches and shaving has been done to death?

Fly fishing in the latest edition.

I'll send you a copy if you want.

 

[mattlad]

In. But only if the EU is a true one man / woman one vote.

 

[Rev-O]

Tony Benn's five questions to be asked whenever you meet a person of power:

What power have you got?
Where did you get it from?
In whose interests do you exercise it?
To whom are you accountable?
And how can we get rid of you?

Whatever you think of Tony Benn these are good questions - and ones that we need to ask of the EU.

 

[UKRob]

Tony Benn's five questions to be asked whenever you meet a person of power:

What power have you got?
Where did you get it from?
In whose interests do you exercise it?
To whom are you accountable?
And how can we get rid of you?

Whatever you think of Tony Benn these are good questions - and ones that we need to ask of the EU.

What a pity he did not apply them to himself when throwing public money at lame duck workers co-operatives and other doomed industries.

 

[antdad]

...rather than down the necks of your jack booted friends? Give it a break, your contributions on this matter are more than tedious.

 

[dodgy]

Hiya,

I can only imagine that poor Lloyd must be banned. This thread looks like something he might have some thoughts on.

 

[UKRob]

...rather than down the necks of your jack booted friends? Give it a break, your contributions on this matter are more than tedious.

And where is your contribution - in 6 pages of posts I don't see any opinion from you? As to jack booted friends, read my posts - there's nothing extreme or right wing in them.

 

[Bechet]

In all I've bothered to read of this thread, my favourite bit is Chris's "partly rhetorical question". Priceless, Chris!

Of Europe? You're in so get on with it. The sooner we have Federal Europe the sooner we can settle down to being British again. Does a Texan feel less Texan because he is also American?

 

[Rev-O]

...rather than down the necks of your jack booted friends? Give it a break, your contributions on this matter are more than tedious.

And where is your contribution - in 6 pages of posts I don't see any opinion from you? As to jack booted friends, read my posts - there's nothing extreme or right wing in them.

:huh:

Tony, I trawled back to see what UKRob had written and couldn't find anything very extreme.

Slightly disappointed tbh

 

[SoapAlchemist]

I guess sometimes, threads can get blurred.........