Old steel versus new steel

H

Hyperborean

Messages
46
Hello,

I have read certain claims that steel from old stock razors (historical TI, or Le Grelot for example) is better than TI new steel ("carbonsong 135") razors. I only have TI made from new steel so I can't tell anything. I am considering getting another razor. Does anyone here know if there really is such difference i.e. that a old steel is somehow better than new one? for example comparing historic TI and TI forged from new steel? I have also read that some claimed Le Grelots are better shavers than TI , supposedly because of different steel and perhaps also grind (though if I am not mistaken those old Le Grelots were finished by TI anyway). What do you think? Is there any research on this matter?

regards,

Aleksander
 
Blades said:
If you have the funds get something brand new..either one..or you can get a very good condition razor and get it touched up

B
Click to expand...

Not the question he asked.

Aleks,

General consensus is that vintage TI/Le Grelots are better than the newer ones, and often go for more on the bay of evil than new.
I think Grelots trump TI on quality (vintage) from what I gather, but I might be wrong.
I have a vintage TI Spartacus which is really nice, and I picked up for cheap, I've not used the new ones, so I can't compare.
Though I think you can find a few TI/Grelot amateurs here...

Max
 
So you are basically telling me that the alleged Le Grelot superiority of shave over TI is an american (i.e. marketing ) thing? quite possible. I prefer the looks of TI razors,among the best looking razors.... however I am not that partial I wouldn't buy 3/4 hollow Le Grelot if it is really that good and if I got it for reasonable price...there is maybe one important thing for shaving performance, the implications of lenght of the razor on its maneuverability, older ones (both TI and Le Grelot) have longer blades...my Le Dandy has around 70 mm blade and I would even prefer even slightly shorter blade over longer...

ps: those Le Grelots are big (<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Stangerrr/P7120081.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/ ... 120081.jpg</a><!-- m -->)
 
Hyperborean said:
So you are basically telling me that the alleged Le Grelot superiority of shave over TI is an american (i.e. marketing ) thing?
Click to expand...
That's not what I said, nor did Andy say that, Neil says they're better, and I can safely say that I trust his judgement, as he has seen & honed more straights than most of us ever will..

Hyperborean said:
there is maybe one important thing for shaving performance, the implications of lenght of the razor on its maneuverability, older ones (both TI and Le Grelot) have longer blades...my Le Dandy has around 70 mm blade and I would even prefer even slightly shorter blade over longer...

ps: those Le Grelots are big
Click to expand...

Yes, the vintage 6/8 grelot I have just measured is from stabiliser to tip, 78mm (stabiliser is 4mm) so total length of 74mm. The edge is 70mm.
The TI Spartacus 4/8 is 4mm shorter in all regards, so 74mm, 70mm, 66mm.

But you've already answered your own question, if you prefer shorter blades, you need to look elsewhere, unless you go for a 4/8 or similar.

Max
 
FrenchBlade said:
Hyperborean said:
So you are basically telling me that the alleged Le Grelot superiority of shave over TI is an american (i.e. marketing ) thing? quite possible. I prefer the looks of TI razors,among the best looking razors.... however I am not that partial I wouldn't buy 3/4 hollow Le Grelot if it is really that good and if I got it for reasonable price...there is maybe one important thing for shaving performance, the implications of lenght of the razor on its maneuverability, older ones (both TI and Le Grelot) have longer blades...my Le Dandy has around 70 mm blade and I would even prefer even slightly shorter blade over longer...
Click to expand...
Yes, the vintage 6/8 grelot I have just measured is from stabiliser to tip, 78mm (stabiliser is 4mm) so total length of 74mm. The edge is 70mm.
The TI Spartacus 4/8 is 4mm shorter in all regards, so 74mm, 70mm, 66mm.

But you've already answered your own question, if you prefer shorter blades, you need to look elsewhere, unless you go for a 4/8 or similar.

Max
Click to expand...


oh yes,it is 4/8 that what I am looking for.....not ha ha ha....the 6/8 Le Dandy is 70 mm from the nose to the stabiliser, it seems it's of similar lenght as your Spartacus, and longer blade would only be more clumsy

ps.:It seems I misunderstood what you two wrote about Le Grelot...so actualy it is better than TI? because of steel?
 
Hyperborean said:
oh yes,it is 4/8 that what I am looking for.....not ha ha ha....the 6/8 Le Dandy is 70 mm from the nose to the tang, and longer is not necessary
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I find the 4/8s I have (3) very nice, takes a bit more skill, but if it's manoeuvrability you want, 4/8 is ideal, though I wouldn't recommend it for a newbie.

Max
 
FrenchBlade said:
Hyperborean said:
oh yes,it is 4/8 that what I am looking for.....not ha ha ha....the 6/8 Le Dandy is 70 mm from the nose to the tang, and longer is not necessary
Click to expand...
I find the 4/8s I have (3) very nice, takes a bit more skill, but if it's manoeuvrability you want, 4/8 is ideal, though I wouldn't recommend it for a newbie.

Max
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Hm, if I rethink what bothers me, it is handle, it's too long (you can see it on my profile photo) and sometimes with certain passes it gets in my way...otherwise I like wider blades...btw why do you think I am a newbie? it's not like I started shaving with a straigh half a year ago
 
FrenchBlade said:
Your arrogance has just earned you top spot on my ignore list, and within 26 posts.

Congratulations.

Max
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Funny...I certainly did not mean to sound arrogant...I assure you that I don't feel any arrogance toward anybody... I should have use emoticons; my remark on your 4/8 suggestion was meant as funny, not offensive...
 
Older le Grelots were not finished by TI. The only old le Grelots that were finished by TI were the blank stock that TI bought up when le Grelot went face up. Not the same thing at all.

Regards,
Neil
 
About the ancient razor steel i can say,expecially for thiers-issard razor, that the ancient steel was create with this chemical composition

Chemical composition of sheffield silver steel (used also for thiers-issard)
BS-1407:C=1,10-1,20%
~0,35 %Mg
~0,30% Si
The carbonsong composition is this:
The code C135 is indicative of a presence of carbon in alloy 1, 35%, slightly lower then the Diamant (Diamond) Steel (1.40% of carbon in this alloy).
The steel and diamonds are 'included in the unification and has a particular chemical structure:

C = 1.40%, Cr = 1% (i'm not sure about chrome), W = 4.5%, F = 0.40%

cause the power to buy with the hardening of the exceptional hardness 71-72 HRC, unreachable by any other steel, you can' be used for processing of materials more 'hard, but if you do not want to soften the hardness should not be heat the edge over 100 degrees Centigrade.
Bibliography:
Cutting Metal and this
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://books.google.it/books?id=fvhJAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://books.google.it/books?id=fvhJAAA ... &q&f=false</a><!-- m -->

About magnetic razors i can say that The stainless steel was used for these razors to silicio.Tale steel and 'sweet low-carbon, with about 1% of silicon, very hard, has a high resistance to fatigue and a very high yield, is then used for leaf springs and flexible molds for minting. It is difficult to weld and not very malleable, but it takes very good temper, difficult or even from zinc chromate.

Moreover, the addition of silicon greatly increases the electrical resistance and magnetic permeability of the material, making it excellent for the construction of magnetic circuits of transformers and rotating electrical machines. It is marketed in the form of sheets, cold rolled and annealed to direct microscopic grains that form the magnetic domains. For these uses will increase the silicon content of 3-4%, resulting in the so-called magnetic steel.

The silicon has a considerable influence on electrical and magnetic properties of steel. It is important in manufacturing therefore always present as Mn (steel is only 1%). Tends to separate the graphite with low% of C.

* High hardness, strength and yield strength.
* In the spring steels where you'll need an increase in the ratio Rs / R
* Increases the hardenability because it reduces the critical speed cooling;
* From resistance to oxidation and acid;
* Adverse effect on the cementation
* Malicious deformability on hot and cold: after only 6% are possible projects;
* Harmful to the weldability, the form of silicates in the HAZ.
* Tendency to overheat (wholesale wheat).
 
Neil Miller said:
Older le Grelots were not finished by TI. The only old le Grelots that were finished by TI were the blank stock that TI bought up when le Grelot went face up. Not the same thing at all.

Regards,
Neil
Click to expand...

Hm where can I buy those Le Grelots? I probably wouldn't mind owning one. Yesterday I was browsing on the internet in search of Le Grelots. The sources are primarily various straight razor forums, Rasurpur (only the "cheaper" modified Le Grelot (by TI I assumes) and a pinkwood handles one are left which are fairly expensive and truth to be said I don't feel like owning a "pink" razor :twisted: ), then the Classic shaving site has got left some of them and a few others sites probably...anyone willing to part with his 3/4 Le Grelot here :?:

ps: are those at the Classic shaving older or not?
 
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