Yaqi Avanti. A Stainless Progress, finally....

slapo said:

Brass is actually denser than 316L steel (if not by much), so I wonder whether you've compared the same razors in different materials or different designs altogether when you mentioned steel razors being heavy.

I have to say, I like nickel plated brass, though. Shame razors platers come and go fairly quickly (and mostly seem to go).

Click to expand...

All brass razors i've used have been vintage so had hollow handles Much better balance for a precision instrument IMO.

slapo said:

Steel actually holds heat better than brass - it has a significantly lower heat conductivity (exact number varies depending on alloy specifics). That, however, also means that it takes it longer to heat up, so while brass might take a minute to warm up, you'd need to have steel exposed to the same amount of heat for a longer time.

If you're comparing how smooth threading is, from what manufacturers were the razors the threads of which you were comparing?
Were you comparing razors from the same manufacturer, made using the same process?

I'm rather unsure whether there was an actual move away from plated brass to steel, as, if I remember things right, the transition was mostly brass → brass+aluminium → zamak (when looking at just Gillette Tech, for example).
I think that, for a while, Fatip was the only manufacturer who would keep up production of brass razors while pretty much everyone else went to zamak (with the occasional brass thread).
Then a few smaller manufacturers started producing steel razors (I think Feather and Above the Tie might've been among the first, but I might well be wrong there).

You're also glossing over the fact that plating varies in quality, and there are many vintage Gillettes with fairly significant amounts of plating loss.
I've had Fatips with plating loss (mostly the Special Editition, which is rather infamous for it), too, and while I haven't babied them, I haven't treated them harshly either.

I haven't held the Avanti in my hands, but it seems unlikely to have been cast - casting steel on the cheap is pretty challenging without bubbles, and even MIM has some telltale signs (I think it's why pretty much all MIM razors have a satin or matte finish).

Click to expand...

On plating, two things posively affected the plating which I know was done in the past but are relevant today. (1) Looking back to my late father's cleaning of his razor he scrubbed it with a small wire brush akin in size to a toothbrush - bye bye plating. That has carried over to the present time but we use an actual toothbrush which is soft. (2) Polishing it with Brasso. In the army new brasses, mainly belt buckles arrived in a state of pitted and dull. We polished them by rubbing them on cardboard with Brasso on it and the pitting was removed and the brass smooth.

I own stainless steel razors most recently a Yaqi Romulus and I don't support your standpoint that stainless steel is warmer than brass. In my opinion the only metal that I know of that's colder than stainless steel is pewter.

Lastly there are manufacturers still making razors in brass and plated brass. Staying on topic, amongst Chinese manufacturers/sellers look on Aliexpress for "Yintal" = they have brass and plated brass DE razors but watch out for the copper razor which is actually brass plated in a copper colour. In fact I have never seen a Yintal razor which is not brass but I am not saying they don't exist.

Regarding your position on casting stainless steel: Well, the alternative method of manufacture is stamping with a die. But oh well, my stainless steel cutlery must be CNC machined then.

Lastly, a Merkur clone which is priced at more than double the price of the original? Even one made of Stainless Steel? No way!

Rohleder said:

All brass razors i've used have been vintage so had hollow handles Much better balance for a precision instrument IMO.

Click to expand...

At the risk of derailing the thread further - what was the handle size and how do you grip them?
I find that with razors below a certain size and girth, I need to change to a very different type of a grip for comfort.

Anthorn said:

On plating, two things posively affected the plating which I know was done in the past but are relevant today. (1) Looking back to my late father's cleaning of his razor he scrubbed it with a small wire brush akin in size to a toothbrush - bye bye plating. That has carried over to the present time but we use an actual toothbrush which is soft. (2) Polishing it with Brasso. In the army new brasses, mainly belt buckles arrived in a state of pitted and dull. We polished them by rubbing them on cardboard with Brasso on it and the pitting was removed and the brass smooth.

I own stainless steel razors most recently a Yaqi Romulus and I don't support your standpoint that stainless steel is warmer than brass. In my opinion the only metal that I know of that's colder than stainless steel is pewter.

Lastly there are manufacturers still making razors in brass and plated brass. Staying on topic, amongst Chinese manufacturers/sellers look on Aliexpress for "Yintal" = they have brass and plated brass DE razors but watch out for the copper razor which is actually brass plated in a copper colour. In fact I have never seen a Yintal razor which is not brass but I am not saying they don't exist.

Regarding your position on casting stainless steel: Well, the alternative method of manufacture is stamping with a die. But oh well, my stainless steel cutlery must be CNC machined then.

Lastly, a Merkur clone which is priced at more than double the price of the original? Even one made of Stainless Steel? No way!

Click to expand...

What you said about maintenance is might be a contributing factor - lots of people don't care for maintenance whatsoever, and even if they do, they can go overboard.
Still, plating needs to be done reasonably well to be worth it - we can see this with zamak razors, too, and the more expensive ones usually have noticeably better plating.
Yintal only use plated brass for handles - the heads are actually coated/plated zamak to look like aged brass. They do actually say so in some of their listings, too. That coating does seem to be more durable than their chrome plating, though (mostly by nature of their chrome plating being too thing and just not very good).

No metal is warm or cold by itself. What I said is that steel holds heat better than brass, but it will take a longer time to bring to the same temperature just due to its lower heat conductivity.
When you were comparing how well brass and steel holds heat, have you actually gotten them to the same temperature, and were you comparing the same razor design (e.g. Karve CB in brass against Karve CB in steel)?

I think you might have left out that I said casting on the cheap is challenging without bubbles. I should have put more context to it, I suppose.
In the post I originally quoted, you said it was cast, not stamped, though.
When you're bringing stamping into it, then that changes things quite significantly - you can have really well made, nearly bubble-free cast steel produced in large quantities for relatively cheap. That's a lot less likely to happen in a comparatively small custom production.
Take a look at Fendrihan's cast steel heads for an example. Perfectly acceptable for actual use, but comparatively worse finish to MIM or CNC machining.

Regardless of whether it was machined or cast, though, the finish appears to be very good, and high quality custom casts aren't going to be cheap either, so as long as they produce the razor to a high standard, the production method isn't very relevant for shaving.
Producing anything from steel to a high standard in small quantities is likely going to be expensive regardless of the method of choice.

The Avanti actually has some clear machining marks on the inside of the lather trough in some of the user submitted photos.
It's only a partial clone, too - the way the head clamps the blade is pretty different from how Progress does it, and that is going to make a difference in how it feels.

Most AliExpress listings have shabby descriptions, so, seeing as the manufacturing method clearly matters to you - why not shoot them a message to clarify?

slapo said:

At the risk of derailing the thread further - what was the handle size and how do you grip them?
I find that with razors below a certain size and girth, I need to change to a very different type of a grip for comfort.

Click to expand...

Of the stainless razors I didn't get on with?

ATT H1/H2/S1/S2 all with 76mm Atlas handle
Blackland Blackbird with 85mm handle
Pils 90mm
RR Gamechanger on 90mm Bulldog
Muhle Rocca 95mm
Currently have a Rex Ambassador @ 87mm which is OK but I prefer the original Gibbs.

My grip is always with my little finger on the base of the handle like so:



For reference, I would take a Gillette NEW SC on bar handle over any stainless design I've ued when it comes to balance and handling...



It's just personal preference... I quite like aluminium razors although the slight pressure you have to apply is unnerving!

@slapo

If I was to choose an ideal alternative to brass and perhaps zamac I would go with aluminium and yes I am eyeing the Timeless aluminium.

In fact Yintal's default is a brass handle and bronze head which is why such razors are described as "Bronze Brass" and which may or may not be plated. But they do supply 100% brass and 100% bronze razors too such as this brass beauty I saw today and which I have on order.