Abu Hamza and four others to be deported

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OK, I think I've got the gist of Lloyd's post now & believe that what you are saying is the we shouldn't have sent him to the US? It seems that most people are confusing his deportation as a means of giving him a 'harder' prison sentence, whereas he had to do time here first for the crimes of racial hatred that he committed on our soil. He now has to face charges in the US on terrorism & part of our long standing agreement with the them is that both sides can ask for extradition. Whether you agree with it or not is another argument.

I hope that summarises it a bit better for me, if not anyone else!

Matt

Oh & Sunbury, if I'm working by the time the next batch is ready, yes definitely to the Bay Rum!
 
lloydedwards said:
How wonderful to share a thread with some intellectual giants. Perhaps I'll learn something about irony.
I'm having real dificulty understanding some of the hatred against someone guilty of inciting hatred, and my grey cells struggle with the rationale of sending someone accused of kidnap, conspiracy to extrajudicial killing and religious hatred to a country that freely and openly currently commits and condones this behaviour.
I could understand it coming from Ayn Rand quoting neocons, but from some people who appear to confuse Magna Carta with Magners, it isn't political debate.

Try reading about Syed Fahad Hashmi, then the whole mantra of "if you do nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear" wringing of hands, is what it's always been, a licence to lynchings.
I'm no "liberal bleeding heart", but wars and prisons for profit?
Emperors new clothes anyone, or a few hectares of swampland?
Just like communist dictators really. Current neocon aims are VERY similar to Marxism, just a diferent criminal gang in charge.
Maybe I should try putting some Molotov cocktails in the "Buy/Sell/Trade??!! Anyone?
love'n'joy
Lloyd

Intellectual giants Lloyd, no, i think you may be mistaking us, or most of us as something other than a group of people interested in something other than in-depth analysis of political agendas and strategies. The clue is in the forum name.

Now let me explain to you Lloyd how far my political interest stretches before i come to my own conclusion that some cunt is taking the piss out of me and mine and something drastic should be done by the elected government, (elected Lloyd by the bigger minority) rather than a bunch of thieving cunts in Brussels who don't have my families best interests at the front of their agenda.

Being self employed i am allowed to work the 70 hour average week that i have become accustomed to, this means that the quality of life i can afford to give to my wife “who also enjoys giving 45 of her hours between Monday and Friday to the local council in return for coin of the realm” and children is foremost on my agenda.

During my working week and i do try to limit these worries to whilst im at work, so as the time i get to spend with my family isn't polluted mainly concerns such trivial things as making the mortgage payments, protecting that mortgage investment with house and contents insurance, protecting the generators of said payments with life insurance and then make pension payments so as to enjoy these whilst in the twilight years.

Once these tiresome distractions have been moved to the back of my mind i can then plot and worry about what i can do to help my children at this worryingly very early stage in their lives with regards to helping them achieve a better quality of life. Those high interest kids savings accounts that seem to contradict themselves by having extremely low levels of interest.
Premium bonds and ISAs running to help towards any further education payments if they choose to follow that route.

What these white hair inducing time stealing worries have given me is a very limited thresh hold with regards to a check list of priorities to meet before i class someone in this case as a complete fucking hate fuelled twat that constitutes not only a complete piss take out of what i do to keep my family on the fucking straight and narrow but a threat to them as well. All of this whilst living in this country at my fucking expense and having the brass balls to do this whilst under protection as other countries that want to have a word with him regarding his activities would remove his head from his shoulders.

Having been on the receiving end of a fair few Molotov cocktails in my later teenage years and early twenties i can honestly say you will be on a loser with regards to selling them on the BST, mainly due to getting them from A to B with RM.

Have a word with Steve and if he can up the alcohol content of the BayRum and add more sugar and petrol with a combustible heavy oil base than we can at least keep it remotely shave related.

Are you seriously asking why i would hate someone who has spent so much time inciting hate against what i hold dear.

Terrorism and breeding hate against those that are keeping you and your family comfortably alive and without want, whilst there are many without in this very country especially those that afford such protection would, if left to me, be met with the end result that was being preached by him at the very beginning. Catch 22, you fucking bet. Brussels can get fucked as well.

Im going for a shave, twat.
 
Loving me new key hanger £3.99 from B&Q when ya buy any hand saw
Hamza.jpg
 
Oh come on Steve, you might have at least combined it with a dartboard! PMSL at that mate! :icon_lol:

Now if anybody can summarise my feelings better than RB73 then you're welcome to try but fail you will.
 
Perhaps I'll learn something about irony.

I couldn't quite resist a quiet smile to myself at this thought of yours Lloyd, honestly. It's just that I had honestly thought that your usual "sign off" of "love'n'joy" was intended ironically & that it was itself a comment on some of the comments on the thread. Apologies if needed.

JohnnyO. \:icon_razz:
 
lloydedwards said:
There seems to be a VERY blinkered, uninformed view of the US prison ststem, and UKs for that matter. Before the privatisations, Prisons were a part of the penal system, now largely in name only, they are profit centres. Not serving the public good, but profitting the very few.

Agreed, though I wonder if it's all that bad, if it's the UK you're referring to.

lloydedwards said:
It should be for the Courts to sentence, not G4S, Serco etc.

'Scuse my ignorance, but isn't that what happens anyway?

lloydedwards said:
As for legal system, we now have the first unqualified (uninformed, uneducated?) Lord Chancellor in 1400 years. In a few months the poor will have no access to the Law for financial or housing issues, unless a well conneceted pro-bono can be found.

Are the concerning cuts to Legal Aid as a direct result of the Legal inexperience of the Lord Chancellor or their political ideology?

lloydedwards said:
Tory voters should be locked up for Treason, selling the State at bargain prices to a small circle of largely non-nationals.
Labour, Lib Dem, Green, UKIP, NF voters should be incarcerated for being deluded.
Most importantly, anyone who doesn't vote should be taxed at 98% on all assets and income.

You do yourself no favours spouting this sort of crap. Who do you suggest I vote for?

lloydedwards said:
A rant, I know, but how can we discuss these matters when it depends on what newspaper owners vested interest tainted the story you read? At school 40 years ago we cut out the "same" story from each newspaper. As you can imagine, totally nonsensical if read together.

Any adult that doesn't realise that is either an idiot or an ardent supporter of a particular party who therefore can't or won't admit that their preferred paper(s) is/are in the tank for that party. It's actually perfectly possible to discuss these matters is we all stop to consider the reliability or otherwise of the source of our information.

lloydedwards said:
NB IF there had been a strong legal case against Hamsa etc, rather than "outrage", they would have faced Justiice many, many years ago, unless they were 'agents of the state', in which case they would get a large pension from public funds. Perhaps the truth isn't black and white!

Do you seriously think the EU would let us extradite someone on the basis or "outrage"?


lloydedwards said:
Who on Earth believes that anyone is stripped of bigotted views in the USA.

It depends what sort of views they are. I doubt any penal system, save permanent 24-hour solitary confinement, would totally prevent extremist Islamic thought from being disseminated, but I'd imagine that the US system is more likely to keep a lid on it than most.
 
Sunburyboy93 - I like the hanger, but no way could I look at that every day! Call that a shave!!!!
Richard, you quite clearly didn't wiki or google Syed Fahad Hashmi - imagine that he was your son. Or is your mind so made up that no amount of fact could interfere? Your rant reminds me of the Chris Rocks "Niggas Vs. Black People" routine - working for our families is what we are supposed to do!
I've re-read this thread from start to finish. Far too many non-sequiturs. Far too many examples of Poea Law, not made easier by previous animosity against emoticons.
If anyone is unaware, UK & US legal system is Gladitorial, Europe is Inquisitorial, the media are masterful at manipulation of this. Essentially the ECHR only rules that a country has followed ITS OWN LAWS when dealing with a case. Plenty of evidence the UK executive hasn't/doesn't, including the old chestnut (anothger thread!!) "Justice delayed is Justice denied".
ChrisBell - a lifetimes work there ! Read a Syed Fahad Hashmi piece please, won't answer all but will give you an idea where I'm coming from. This at a time the US defends an Islam hating video as free-speech, and fundemental Christians want a holy war to bring about Nirvana or whatever.
As for " Who do you suggest I vote for?".
I thought I argued (badly?), voting should be compulsory, and you would need to bother finding out what you were voting for, and those who try to buy all sides eg investing large amounts in more than one party would be seen for what they are. Eg RBS, BP in the US FFS!
Finally, for the "foreign" "europe" etc arguements, are you aware who are behind much of the "defense"? Karl Watkin, the British businessman who has been campaigning to have the men tried in Britain rather than America, said he was "extremely frustrated but not at all surprised"" by the verdict but condemned the UK legal system. "I have no regrets over pursuing a private prosecution - it was the right thing to do. No ifs, no buts - British citizens should be tried in Britain for crimes perpetrated in Britain and in circumstances where the evidence is found in Britain." He believed he weas protecting his family, not any individual.
love'n'joy
Lloyd
PS "love'n'joy" comes from an old Pete Boggs poem. I've used it 20yrs+. There is irony in the poem too, but much love to enjoy also.
Need 6 of 2balls, I'm off before I collapse.


should read Poes Law
 
lloydedwards said:
Sunburyboy93 - I like the hanger, but no way could I look at that every day! Call that a shave!!!!
Richard, you quite clearly didn't wiki or google Syed Fahad Hashmi - imagine that he was your son. Or is your mind so made up that no amount of fact could interfere? Your rant reminds me of the Chris Rocks "Niggas Vs. Black People" routine - working for our families is what we are supposed to do!
I've re-read this thread from start to finish. Far too many non-sequiturs. Far too many examples of Poea Law, not made easier by previous animosity against emoticons.
If anyone is unaware, UK & US legal system is Gladitorial, Europe is Inquisitorial, the media are masterful at manipulation of this. Essentially the ECHR only rules that a country has followed ITS OWN LAWS when dealing with a case. Plenty of evidence the UK executive hasn't/doesn't, including the old chestnut (anothger thread!!) "Justice delayed is Justice denied".
ChrisBell - a lifetimes work there ! Read a Syed Fahad Hashmi piece please, won't answer all but will give you an idea where I'm coming from. This at a time the US defends an Islam hating video as free-speech, and fundemental Christians want a holy war to bring about Nirvana or whatever.
As for " Who do you suggest I vote for?".
I thought I argued (badly?), voting should be compulsory, and you would need to bother finding out what you were voting for, and those who try to buy all sides eg investing large amounts in more than one party would be seen for what they are. Eg RBS, BP in the US FFS!
Finally, for the "foreign" "europe" etc arguements, are you aware who are behind much of the "defense"? Karl Watkin, the British businessman who has been campaigning to have the men tried in Britain rather than America, said he was "extremely frustrated but not at all surprised"" by the verdict but condemned the UK legal system. "I have no regrets over pursuing a private prosecution - it was the right thing to do. No ifs, no buts - British citizens should be tried in Britain for crimes perpetrated in Britain and in circumstances where the evidence is found in Britain." He believed he weas protecting his family, not any individual.
love'n'joy
Lloyd
PS "love'n'joy" comes from an old Pete Boggs poem. I've used it 20yrs+. There is irony in the poem too, but much love to enjoy also.
Need 6 of 2balls, I'm off before I collapse.


should read Poes Law



Being a US citizen and wanted in the US to answer an indictment issued by a US jury should i hope, be acted upon in the same way if it was a British national being arrested in the US, to be sent back to Britain to answer for the same reasons and not as a reason to visit another country with the reason of avoidance.

As for if it was my son, he would get the hiding of his life if i was to find out he was knowingly associating with such people.

As far as im concerned, to know about is as good as being a part of.
 
You know Lloyd, that case (Hashmi) makes no sense to me in the way it's been presented by his supporters. I'll be the first to agree that, at times, the US are over-zealous in how they deal with possible extremists, but really? A young chap whose former professor admits had very strong views and who was associated with a group (Al Muhajiroun) which is a known extremist organisation, is arrested for letting a guy who he vaguely knows stay at his place, and lends him his mobile, on which the acquaintance organises the supply of army surplus to Al Quaeda, and, on that alone, is sentenced to 15 years after having spent 3 in solitary confinement? Sorry, that doesn't make sense. The American authorities aren't that obsessive. In these sorts of cases, one has to ask what their motivation to pursue the man and keep him in such high-security detention is. Why go to all that effort, all that secrecy, all that expense if the guy is that harmless?

It seems to me that they must have much more evidence about him than anyone, including his former professor, knows about. Plus, as Richard obliquely mentions, most families would be furious with him for associating with terrorist supporters. I'm afraid to say that I really can't see what all the fuss is about.
 
Christopher Tappin
Gary McKinnon
Richard O'Dwyer

06 August, 2012
Almost immediately after the shooting at the Sikh Temple in Wisconsin, leaders of the Westboro Baptist Church took to Twitter, calling the shooting a beautiful punishment from an angry God. The shooting claimed the lives of seven victims, and left many injured. The alleged attacker Wade Michael Page was found dead at the scene and the FBI is investigating if this is a case of domestic terrorism.
 
Abu Hamza stayed out of jail and was therefore living off the welfare state for a lot longer than he should have been, mainly because the security services were playing him for information. Finsbury Park mosque was similarly allowed to stay as an extremist centre. I think the only reason he got arrested at all was because they had got everything useful they could from his connections. So now they just get propaganda and political leverage from him.
Wasting loads of hate on him is pointless, he's just a caricature brought to life; I didn't manage to sit through all of The Four Lions but the crazy preacher seemed to be modelled on Hamza. As Lloyd rather obscurely pointed out there are plenty of other people spreading hate and unpleasantness about, seems a waste of life to hate them back.
The harshness of the US penal system, up to and including the death penalty doesn't seem to curb the propensity for crime over there; as having the harshest drug laws in Europe doesn't stop us from having the largest drug problem.

Saudi Arabia's penal system is much more about punishment rather than rehabilitation, perhaps we should fly him over there instead?
 
lloydedwards said:
Christopher Tappin
Gary McKinnon
Richard O'Dwyer

06 August, 2012
Almost immediately after the shooting at the Sikh Temple in Wisconsin, leaders of the Westboro Baptist Church took to Twitter, calling the shooting a beautiful punishment from an angry God.

Disgusting and disgraceful behaviour from those who use religion as a defence mechanism against censure and a justification for their actions. No different to Hamza, just different robes.

lloydedwards said:
The shooting claimed the lives of seven victims, and left many injured. The alleged attacker Wade Michael Page was found dead at the scene and the FBI is investigating if this is a case of domestic terrorism.

Seems a reasonable response from the Feds to me.

OK, perhaps I was a little angry yesterday in what I typed. If indeed Hashmi only did what we know he was convicted for, then I'd agree 15 years is excessive. If he was genuine a peaceable man, then his treatment in custody was excessively harsh. My argument is that the response is so out of proportion to the crimes with which we know he was charged that I can't imagine that was all he did. A young guy who was obviously angry with how his adopted country was treating those of his faith can easily be radicalised. It just seems a waste of time, effort and money to have him in isolation unable even to move out of range of cameras to have a shower, unable to have proper contact with his lawyers, if all they thought he'd done was provide accommodation and the use of a mobile to an acquaintance who, as it turned-out, was supporting terrorism.
 
Count of Undolpho said:
Chrisbell have a search for "Ricin the plot that never was".

Too much pressure applied by the G W Bush administration who were desperate for any evidence that they could get to justify invading Iraq, by the sound of it. Mind you, I reckon that anyone who stabs police officers deserves to spend time in prison. As to what that has to do with anything else, I'm not sure. I don't think we're comparing like with like here, anyway. Hamza seems a much more dangerous prospect than either the Ricin case suspects (with the exception of the guy who stabbed the police officers) and Hashmi, so the argument that the authorities over-reacted in their cases doesn't tell us anything about whether they have with Hamza. If you or I scrumped some apples, we'd expect to receive a fine and a reprimand, but we wouldn't expect to be sentenced to a life sentence. That, however, would have nothing to do with whether someone received the same sentence after being convicted of multiple counts of murder, would it?
 
I'm risking sounding like an apologist/bleeding heart whatever- but history teaches use to beware those who ignore history. I'm using this as "an example".
The incident where Police were stabbed, one fatally happened here in Manchester, so was talked about a lot. The attacker was well fed with information on Gitmo, prolonged isolation without trial, "harsh treatment", and if sent to US, possibly indefinate denial of Justice, and as we can all easily find, 'different' treatment from not Muslims.
The 'contract' in this country was (largely) unarmed police + evenhanded treatment = take your punishment. The movement away from this started in my opinion with the miners strike.
Perhaps the same ideology that wrote the new algorithim also wrote the algorythims for the financial sector then too !
love'n'joy
Lloyd
 
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